Conversion invalidations:End of united Jewry or of deception?
I recommend that you check out this discussion at Brooklyn Wolf's blog.
Here's a sample:
"Rabbi Avraham Sherman, the head of the Israel's High Rabbinical Court, has been making some very threatening and ominous statements concerning conversions. He started out by stating at the Eternal Jewish Family conference in Israel last week that the majority of potential converts do not intend to keep the commandments (generally viewed as a sine qua non of conversion). This is the same Rabbi Sherman who made the decision to annul thousands of conversions performed by Rabbi Haim Druckman, who was the head of the state Conversion Courts. This is also the same Rabbi Sherman who, this past week, invalidated another conversion (although, to be fair, I don't know the grounds on which this was done).
[ . . . snip . . . ]
. . . Rather than accepting all conversions as valid (barring evidence to the contrary), his opinion seems to be that all conversions are to be viewed as suspect until and unless there is evidnece validating it. Indeed, according to a Ynet article, Rabbi Sherman has instructed municipal registrars to question every conversion certificate that they are presented with.
At this rate, one has to wonder... why bother with conversions at all? Why would anyone in their right mind want to consider a conversion when it can be challanged years down the road? Why would anyone consider a conversion in the United States when there is no guarntee that it will be accepted when one gets to Israel, despite one's best efforts to get the highest standards of Orthodox conversion? Why would anyone want to start the process of conversion when they know, in the back of their mind that years down the road, after they are enmeshed in a marriage and have children and grandchildren that it could all come crashing down on them... even for factors over which they had no control?
[ . . . snip . . . ]
. . . It's one thing (and a separate debate) to set up higher standards for conversions going forward. But it's another to start demanding extra evidence of converts (and whose to stop him from requiring it of descendants of converts) that their conversion from years ago is valid when they have a valid certification. To start questioning every past conversion (or marriage, or divorce) is not only a complete departure from established precedent, but also can only lead to irreperable harm to the Jewish nation."
ClooJew said...
I don't see, lulei demistafina, how this qualifies as a "madness."The wholesale tossing of conversions is a reaction to the wholesale nature of the conversions themselves. You don't seem to bring any evidence to the table as to why Rabbi Sherman should stop undoing conversions that, in his Halachic opinion, flouted Halachic standards. I spoke to a rav in New York City who is involved in geirus (a YU musmach, as it happens), and he confirmed that the lack of standards for conversions is deplorable and destructive.As for sincere converts, yes it is unfair to them; but that unfairness does not fall on the lap of Rabbi Sherman. The people to blame are the insincere converts and, moreso, the rabbis who acted as their enablers. They cast significant doubt on the entire process."
This situation is beginning to sound depressingly familiar.
Here's a sample:
"Rabbi Avraham Sherman, the head of the Israel's High Rabbinical Court, has been making some very threatening and ominous statements concerning conversions. He started out by stating at the Eternal Jewish Family conference in Israel last week that the majority of potential converts do not intend to keep the commandments (generally viewed as a sine qua non of conversion). This is the same Rabbi Sherman who made the decision to annul thousands of conversions performed by Rabbi Haim Druckman, who was the head of the state Conversion Courts. This is also the same Rabbi Sherman who, this past week, invalidated another conversion (although, to be fair, I don't know the grounds on which this was done).
[ . . . snip . . . ]
. . . Rather than accepting all conversions as valid (barring evidence to the contrary), his opinion seems to be that all conversions are to be viewed as suspect until and unless there is evidnece validating it. Indeed, according to a Ynet article, Rabbi Sherman has instructed municipal registrars to question every conversion certificate that they are presented with.
At this rate, one has to wonder... why bother with conversions at all? Why would anyone in their right mind want to consider a conversion when it can be challanged years down the road? Why would anyone consider a conversion in the United States when there is no guarntee that it will be accepted when one gets to Israel, despite one's best efforts to get the highest standards of Orthodox conversion? Why would anyone want to start the process of conversion when they know, in the back of their mind that years down the road, after they are enmeshed in a marriage and have children and grandchildren that it could all come crashing down on them... even for factors over which they had no control?
[ . . . snip . . . ]
. . . It's one thing (and a separate debate) to set up higher standards for conversions going forward. But it's another to start demanding extra evidence of converts (and whose to stop him from requiring it of descendants of converts) that their conversion from years ago is valid when they have a valid certification. To start questioning every past conversion (or marriage, or divorce) is not only a complete departure from established precedent, but also can only lead to irreperable harm to the Jewish nation."
ClooJew said...
I don't see, lulei demistafina, how this qualifies as a "madness."The wholesale tossing of conversions is a reaction to the wholesale nature of the conversions themselves. You don't seem to bring any evidence to the table as to why Rabbi Sherman should stop undoing conversions that, in his Halachic opinion, flouted Halachic standards. I spoke to a rav in New York City who is involved in geirus (a YU musmach, as it happens), and he confirmed that the lack of standards for conversions is deplorable and destructive.As for sincere converts, yes it is unfair to them; but that unfairness does not fall on the lap of Rabbi Sherman. The people to blame are the insincere converts and, moreso, the rabbis who acted as their enablers. They cast significant doubt on the entire process."
This situation is beginning to sound depressingly familiar.
posted by Shira Salamone at 1:32 PM
4 Comments:
Because hurting a legitimate convert is a HUGE sin, and getting rid of an illegitimate convert is of minor significance? Honestly, they are flat out IGNORING two Halachot... 1, if the conversion was, at the time, legitimate, then if they lapse later, they are no different from any other lapsed Jew. 2, since there is no presumed benefit to one claiming to be Jewish (and often persecution and pogroms), when someone claims to be Jewish, we are to assume they are unless proven otherwise. Only in situations where there is a benefit to the person to falsely claim to be Jewish (raising Tzedakah, in Israel where their are legal rights, etc.) are we permitted to question it.
A conversion, under RCA auspices in the USA offers the convert no "benefits," and only the risk of discrimination, should be presumed valid.
The rest is Halachic hoop jumping to get to a predetermined outcome, the type of intellectual dishonesty that seems the norm in all branches of Judaism today... to the point that Reform Judaism is looking the most intellectually honest of the groups... which is truly tragic.
" . . . if the conversion was, at the time, legitimate, then if they lapse later, they are no different from any other lapsed Jew. 2, since there is no presumed benefit to one claiming to be Jewish (and often persecution and pogroms), when someone claims to be Jewish, we are to assume they are unless proven otherwise. Only in situations where there is a benefit to the person to falsely claim to be Jewish (raising Tzedakah, in Israel where their are legal rights, etc.) are we permitted to question it."
My impression is that the Chareidi Israeli rabbinate sees conversion to Judaism as, indeed, benefiting individual Israelis (or possible future Israelis), because it enables them to marry Jews and be buried as Jews in Israel. From Sherman and company's perspective, the attempt by the Religious Zionist/Dati Leumi rabbinate to convert ex-Soviets who are not halachically Jewish is an act of corruption.
My impression is that the Religious Zionist rabbinate sees conversion to Judaism as benefiting not only individuals, but also the State of Israeli, solidifying the connection between ex-Soviets and their adopted homeland, and preventing the long-range tragedy of thousands of Israelis who are self-identified Jews not being considered halachically Jewish.
I suspect that the Chareidi rabbinate doesn't care about whether the majority of the population of the Jewish State is halachically Jewish because they don't think there should be a Jewish State in the first place. They may live there, but they're still waiting for Mashiach/Messiah to make the existence of an officially-Jewish state legitimate.
You said " . . . if the conversion was, at the time, legitimate, then if they lapse later, they are no different from any other lapsed Jew." Sherman and company disagree. They won't accept *any* conversion unless the convert continues to observe Judaism in perfect conformity with Chareidi interpretations until the day they die.
It's tragic that Sherman and company have so little interest in the welfare of the country in which they are living, and so little compassion for individuals.
As I've said before, I think that Chareidism has lapsed into a non-halachic realm... at this point, I think that so many of their "minhagim" (customs) and "poskim" (ruling) have strayed so far outside the Halacha as accepted by Orthodox Judaism, I find it hard to understand how they are still recognized by Modern Orthodoxy. At this point, I think I can point out more anti-Torah/anti-Gemara practices in Chareidism than from the Conservative legal world (lay practice is another story).
This is just the latest sad episode, but this one allows them to hurt others, not just themselves.
The extremists among the Chareidim seem to think that the end--keeping Judaism "pure"--justifies the means.
They would probably say that the Dati Leumi camp *also* thinks that the end--helping self-identified Jews halachically Jewish, thus trying to ensure the continued Jewishness of the Jewish State--justifies the means.
Meanwhile, thousands of individuals and families suffer while the two sides duke it out.
Sigh.
Re Chareidi minhagim/customs and chumrot/stringencies, "penguin" uniforms (exclusively black and while clothing) for both men and women? Full-time Gemara studies for all men, whether they're good at and/or interested in Gemara studies or not? Women stripped of their status as converts for wearing pants? Men considered non-Orthodox because they wear knitted kippot instead of borsalino hats? What does any of this have to do with halachah/Jewish religious law?
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